Seat upgrades & safety rules

[tigeo]

Just adding that the Schroth harnesses are not “approved” by anybody. There are a list of FMVSS requirements which they pick and choose which are applicable to their 4pt harnesses. They leave out the full scale high speed impact testing FYI. Which is prob what you want to know when doing 140mph down a straight.

View attachment 297054

It’s like “DOT approved brake hoses”. Nobody is fucking testing those to get an “approval”. Things are manufactured to “meet the specifications” which you have to take their word for.



Also the ASM harnesses should not be used with a HANS:
https://www.schrothracing.com/post/anti-submarining-technology



Only exception is the Quickfit Pro.

Factory belts or whole enchilada with cage, (edit FIA seats, (/edit)and 5/6pt harnesses.

When I reached out to the HMS guys a while back when researching the belts and Hybrid HANS, the Schroth belts (Quick Fit, Rallye 3 and 4) are all compatible with the Hybrid S just like a 3 point is. The Quick Fit Pro is also compatible with standard HANS which the others are not. Hybrid S works with everything. I've seen this language for other safety bits w/r not HANS compatible referring to a standard HANS not taking into account the Hybrid S.

 

[DerHase]

I think Schroth & Wiechers have enough first hand experience of designing, testing, & building harnesses & roll cages in motorsports to know what to do that will actually work & save your life.. Most big manufacturers will make a car down to the cheapest price they can & do everything to "just" pass the safety requirements..all to save costs....Making a product to solely meet a certain "specification" doesn't mean its actually safe in the real world....cue the inadequate design/test criteria on flammable exterior cladding which was the main contributing factor in the Grenfell tower fire/disaster..,...the product passed the testing as required ..!!!

I would trust all the above Schroth ASM (anti-submarining) 4 points & Wiechers half cage in a daily & even for track use on a car that is used for fast laps of the local track, or in certain events which would allow it......over here quite a few of the amateur club events would be ok with it..

Over here we get factory road legal cars with half cages & a combination of 4, 5 or 6 point harnesses, & usually the 5 or 6 point harness options are only with bucket seats (i.e. fixed back)..ie Renault & Porsche amongst others (besides Ariel (has 4 points as standard fit), Caterham, Lotus, etc.)....It's a good halfway house better than basic normal car factory set-up...more for a daily...not as good as a full on weld in cage & 6 point harnesses...which then limits the car is solely being a track day car only & not for a daily....

I wouldn't run 5 point harnesses...a central crotch strap is reminiscent of the old Whillans climbing harness...been there, done that!..... .....& if you fit 6 point harnesses you should only be using a fixed back seat.....& you really need a full cage as you have to have the seat under bar to bolt the two crotch straps to...

Side note:- Although in a different sphere, I know safety systems, & high speed impacts on humans (I used to sell, advise, & specify industrial rope access & mountaineering equipment & sign the certs....so groups such as wind farm builders, tree surgeons, to mountain rescue, to military special ops etc., right through to everyday climbers)

Yeah I forgot to add seats to the “whole enchilada” option. That’s a given with 5 or 6pts.

I don’t think Schroth necessarily is doing “the bare minimum”, but I think the actual tested safety aspect of the 4pt is exaggerated.

I’ve yet to see somebody have a really serious crash with them. Even then that would be a single data point.

Also not sure if you’ve ever noticed, but look at the seat base angles when they’re testing 3pt vs 4pt belts. It also seems they’re not even using the exact same seats for these comparisons.

As stated earlier everything is about assessing your own risk. Take the above FWIW. I’ll trust VW engineers to build a system around the stock seat and airbags up until a cage goes in the car.


Also agreed I’m not a fan of 5pt and would opt for a 6pt. I was instructing in a Honda Civic that had seats mounted on sliders. Turns out I didn’t click it in fully and had the boys crushed from 130mph down to ~40ish in a hard braking zone . Learned to shake the hell out of every seat after that lesson too

 

[tigeo]

Yeah I forgot to add seats to the “whole enchilada” option. That’s a given with 5 or 6pts.

I don’t think Schroth necessarily is doing “the bare minimum”, but I think the actual tested safety aspect of the 4pt is exaggerated.

I’ve yet to see somebody have a really serious crash with them. Even then that would be a single data point.

Also not sure if you’ve ever noticed, but look at the seat base angles when they’re testing 3pt vs 4pt belts. It also seems they’re not even using the exact same seats for these comparisons.

As stated earlier everything is about assessing your own risk. Take the above FWIW. I’ll trust VW engineers to build a system around the stock seat and airbags up until a cage goes in the car.


Also agreed I’m not a fan of 5pt and would opt for a 6pt. I was instructing in a Honda Civic that had seats mounted on sliders. Turns out I didn’t click it in fully and had the boys crushed from 130mph down to ~40ish in a hard braking zone . Learned to shake the hell out of every seat after that lesson too

I have that single data point, fellow I see at a friend's holiday party each year that is into the HPDE/track scene and we drink/talk (I'll see him next weekend). Totalled his BMW with a Quick Fit at VIR several years ago. He was ok and just sore like you would be with a 3-point. Single data point of course and would have been fine in a 3 point as well I'm sure. There was one other I read on the HPDRE page that noted he hit the wall with one and walked away but it wans't that fast if I recall. At 140mph I'd contend your are fucked either way without a cage/seat/harness/all bets are off in that situation but as we all keep saying...everyone decides how they want to manage that v. real risk. The challenge as I see it is when orgs try to manage your risk for you with bad info.

 

[golfdave]

Yeah I forgot to add seats to the “whole enchilada” option. That’s a given with 5 or 6pts.

I don’t think Schroth necessarily is doing “the bare minimum”, but I think the actual tested safety aspect of the 4pt is exaggerated.

I’ve yet to see somebody have a really serious crash with them. Even then that would be a single data point.

Also not sure if you’ve ever noticed, but look at the seat base angles when they’re testing 3pt vs 4pt belts. It also seems they’re not even using the exact same seats for these comparisons.

As stated earlier everything is about assessing your own risk. Take the above FWIW. I’ll trust VW engineers to build a system around the stock seat and airbags up until a cage goes in the car.


Also agreed I’m not a fan of 5pt and would opt for a 6pt. I was instructing in a Honda Civic that had seats mounted on sliders. Turns out I didn’t click it in fully and had the boys crushed from 130mph down to ~40ish in a hard braking zone . Learned to shake the hell out of every seat after that lesson too

You only have an incident with central crotch straps once.....

Those Schroth tests look ok to me.....yes the rigs & seats are different, but so long as the set up is as per the rules that the car manufactures use thats it...

The ASM 4 points are very good....in many instances they will be better than the factory 3-point....but obviously no where near as good as a 6 point...but to fit a 6-point you really need to fit a fixed back seat & a full roll cage to also get the under seat bar....& that lot is a serious amount in $$$$ difference...If you're doing loads of track days in a specific car, well worth the money....otherwise the half-way house 4 points & half cages are a good compromise.....no worse than factory, & will be better than factory in certain instances...

TBH the standard MK7 Golf seatbelt is flawed & doesn't fit me 100% ..I have a small waist/slim hips...& the MK7 Golf seatbelt lock has been moved forward on a different "bracket" compared to previous VAGs I've owned. I suspect the reason for this is the average waistline is increasing!...

I use a "Shoft" device (my old CG lock doesn't fit 100%) which helps to semi-lock the lap portion of the belt tighter as otherwise I reckon I could submarine under it as it moves around too much & is too loose for my liking..& thats after taking slack up into the inertia reel..

 

[tigeo]

So based on my research w/r to the Schroth ASM DOT 4-point harnesses:

Quick Fit Pro. Has to be used in a vehicle it was tested in; Schroth has a list. This is to ensure the seat backs are strong enough (seat back strength test) to deal with the high-angle of the tail strap (45 degress+). Works with any HANS. Plugs into f/r seat belt female receptical so that the car thinks the belts are engaged which impacts how the air bags are deployed. I'm surpised they haven't released for the MK7, MK5 is the last one they certify it for but folks seem to miss this....

Quick Fit. Same as above but only a Hybrid S HANS is compatible.

Rallye 4. If your car isn't on the Quick Fit list. They state to not install where the down-angle of tail strap >45 degrees (I can't see now any smaller car won't have this angle) and if so...

Rallye 3. Same as above. Single tail strap mounts high (so zero to shallow angle) to the rear upper shoulder belt mounting point. I like this one actually the more I looked at these b/c the seat back strength issue is gone b/c of the angle but it stays installed with a disconnect so you can tuck it away in the rear/have passengers back there. Fronts could likely be tucked so that they were out of the way. I suppose you could just click your 3 point over it loosely to handle the seat belt/air bag bit. As I understand it if the car doesn't sense you have your belt on the air bag deployment force is different.

 

[scrllock]

The ASM 4 points are very good....in many instances they will be better than the factory 3-point....but obviously no where near as good as a 6 point...but to fit a 6-point you really need to fit a fixed back seat & a full roll cage to also get the under seat bar....& that lot is a serious amount in $$$$ difference...If you're doing loads of track days in a specific car, well worth the money....otherwise the half-way house 4 points & half cages are a good compromise.....no worse than factory, & will be better than factory in certain instances...

6 points should be fine with a half cage, you just need backing plates on your submarine belt mounts. Schroth sells them for this purpose. Again, 4 points are generally not allowed here. I took mine off because some of my local groups follow NASA rules, which do not allow quickfits in a mk7.

Rallye 4. If your car isn't on the Quick Fit list. They state to not install where the down-angle of tail strap >45 degrees (I can't see now any smaller car won't have this angle) and if so...

Rallye 3. Same as above. Single tail strap mounts high (so zero to shallow angle) to the rear upper shoulder belt mounting point. I like this one actually the more I looked at these b/c the seat back strength issue is gone b/c of the angle but it stays installed with a disconnect so you can tuck it away in the rear/have passengers back there. Fronts could likely be tucked so that they were out of the way. I suppose you could just click your 3 point over it loosely to handle the seat belt/air bag bit. As I understand it if the car doesn't sense you have your belt on the air bag deployment force is different.

Yep, this is another reason Track R's wiechers isn't great for actual use.

 

[tigeo]

6 points should be fine with a half cage, you just need backing plates on your submarine belt mounts. Schroth sells them for this purpose. Again, 4 points are generally not allowed here. I took mine off because some of my local groups follow NASA rules, which do not allow quickfits in a mk7.

View attachment 297059


Yep, this is another reason Track R's wiechers isn't great for actual use.

Do the QFs actually say the specifc vheicle on them i.e. E46 BMW etc.? I've never looked at one closely. Folks use them all the time, I've seen them at events in vehicles that they weren't cert'd for.

 

[scrllock]

Do the QFs actually say the specifc vheicle on them i.e. E46 BMW etc.? I've never looked at one closely. Folks use them all the time, I've seen them at events in vehicles that they weren't cert'd for.

Yeah, they're specific enough. I didn't take a picture of mine before trading them, but it was similar:

 

[tigeo]

Yeah, they're specific enough. I didn't take a picture of mine before trading them, but it was similar:

View attachment 297066

Oh cool. Thanks I've always been curious what they said. So VW one will be similar and won't cover MK7.

 

[scrllock]

yeah, essentially. I was fine using it myself, but the instructors I've talked to said they'd strongly prefer a 5-6 point with a roll bar if they were going to do ride-alongs. I figure the only thing better than seat time is seat time with a pro, so a setup that helps reassure others into riding along is a good mod.

 

[tigeo]

yeah, essentially. I was fine using it myself, but the instructors I've talked to said they'd strongly prefer a 5-6 point with a roll bar if they were going to do ride-alongs. I figure the only thing better than seat time is seat time with a pro, so a setup that helps reassure others into riding along is a good mod.

3 point OE always works. I've had 3 instructors tell me to get Quick Fits or better seats or a harness bar. It's amazing the variety of opinions on safety gear.

 

[tigeo]

yeah, essentially. I was fine using it myself, but the instructors I've talked to said they'd strongly prefer a 5-6 point with a roll bar if they were going to do ride-alongs. I figure the only thing better than seat time is seat time with a pro, so a setup that helps reassure others into riding along is a good mod.

The nice thing, they can just use the 3 point in this situation which I've read of other instructors doing that weren't comfortable with the 4 point ASM Schroths.

 

[SierraCarrera]

The "official" wording on mine

 

[tigeo]

The "official" wording on mineView attachment 297173

There you go ok! Thanks. So MK5 was last one on the list.

 

[yakev724]

Passed NASA Tech 3x since running Profi II 4-point with a Recaro Sportster. It's are also "expired" for FIA purposes. Had few chats with the techs, including the lead tech in my region and he passed them because the rear belt angle seems close to what Schroth say is within spec for these. I was fully transparent about the car not being on the Audi/VW list. Keep in mind I'm in an S3 and 5'8" so ymmv if you're taller/run mk7.

He did say the guy that runs local distribution for Schroth comes out as well so will have him opine next time we're both at an event.