Seat upgrades & safety rules

[19birel]

Hey all,

I've been contemplating a seat upgrade as trying to hold myself in the stock seats isn't very fun. Seats aren't terribly cheap so I've considered the option of either two budget friendly seats (no ebay garbage don't worry) or a single recaro becuase who cares about passengers, right? lol

The issue with the latter is most track organizations state that the driver and passenger must have the same safety gear or you can't have a passenger. Am I correct in thinking that means I need matching seats, even if both still utilize oem seatbelts? I don't take passengers out, but if I want to advance run groups and an instructor needs to ride along to sign off, I'd need to be in compliance.

 

[scrllock]

Very much up to your local org/tech inspectors. Generally you will be expected to have 5+ point harnesses with appropriate fixed-back seats and a roll bar OR stock belts/seats.
Based on needing to get sign off, I assume you're talking about NASA HPDE? If so, it's either stock belts and stock-style seats, or the full 5+ point harness, race seat, and roll bar setup. Quickfits don't technically pass NASA tech--they don't allow any 4 points nor are there quickfits certified for the mk7 chassis.

Currently the way NASA rules read, you don't need the exact same parts on both sides. End of the day, it's going to be up to your instructor on what they'll agree to. I opted to slowly acquire used FIA-approved seats/harnesses and a steeply discounted roll bar just to ensure I'd never have a problem passing tech or convincing someone to ride along.

If you're thinking about buying a recaro sportster just for the bolstering, IMO you'd get way more bang for your buck putting that towards a full harness/bar setup in terms of safety and confidence.

 

[jay745]

Seats are a tough one but yes most clubs I've run with have this rule. Fixed back seats ruin the use as a street car and aren't safe unless you have a cage and hans device, oem seat belts will hurt you. And you can't really drive a caged car on the street. Unless it's a dedicated track car, keep the oem seats

 

[geokilla]

Have you considered swapping them for Audi S seats? S3, RS3, S4, S5, etc.? I think some of them fit.

 

[DerHase]

I'd spend money on a Simpson Hybrid-S before an aftermarket seat.

They don't make them anymore, but if you can find a used Mighty-Tite seat belt cincher... those things work fucking awesome for locking you into place with a 3pt belt. Way better than the CG-Lock which is a pain in the ass in my experience. Just looks a little silly because it's meant for child seats.. hah.

You need a 4pt roll bar for the back of the car (Autopower makes a decent one), and an FIA certified seat (otherwise with the other certs you must physically hard-mount the seat back to the roll bar - only the FIA certified stuff is meant to be floor mounted only), along with 5 or 6pt belts that are properly mounted/angled correctly.

Harness bars are stupid IMO. They're mounted directly to the B-pillar and in a side impact, will buckle the bar immediately, likely loosening or tightening the belts. A proper cage or 4pt+ roll bar is at least triangulated to minimize any distortion in a side impact.

edit: And if you were to do full roll bar or cage + seats + harnesses the right way... do both sides. Driver side should at least be a full containment seat with the halo to keep your head from shifting sideways. IMO if you plan on having passengers on track regularly it makes sense to do the same on the passenger side, otherwise a regular version without the halo IMO is a reasonable compromise to gain additional visibility (though the same 5 or 6pt harnesses should still be used on both sides).

 

[19birel]

Very much up to your local org/tech inspectors. Generally you will be expected to have 5+ point harnesses with appropriate fixed-back seats and a roll bar OR stock belts/seats.
Based on needing to get sign off, I assume you're talking about NASA HPDE? If so, it's either stock belts and stock-style seats, or the full 5+ point harness, race seat, and roll bar setup. Quickfits don't technically pass NASA tech--they don't allow any 4 points nor are there quickfits certified for the mk7 chassis.

Currently the way NASA rules read, you don't need the exact same parts on both sides. End of the day, it's going to be up to your instructor on what they'll agree to. I opted to slowly acquire used FIA-approved seats/harnesses and a steeply discounted roll bar just to ensure I'd never have a problem passing tech or convincing someone to ride along.

If you're thinking about buying a recaro sportster just for the bolstering, IMO you'd get way more bang for your buck putting that towards a full harness/bar setup in terms of safety and confidence.

Yeah I was actually considering a Sportster as I figured that might be an alternative option as it's not fixed back. For me the oem seats have high/narrow enough bolsters, but the bolster just isn't firm enough to handle hard cornering and starts collapsing. A harness bar and harnesses does sound more practical though, I'll have to price out a setup.

Seats are a tough one but yes most clubs I've run with have this rule. Fixed back seats ruin the use as a street car and aren't safe unless you have a cage and hans device, oem seat belts will hurt you. And you can't really drive a caged car on the street. Unless it's a dedicated track car, keep the oem seats

This is something I've vacillated over, the GTI is not my daily but it has seen almost exactly the same miles as my daily over the past year despite me not commuting in it all that much. I don't mind if they're a little tricky to get in and out of, but if they're not comfy once you're in then it gets tricky and a fixed back seat obviously isn't designed for comfort.

Have you considered swapping them for Audi S seats? S3, RS3, S4, S5, etc.? I think some of them fit.

I have, I actually test drove an RS3 in part to see if the seats would work for me. After talking myself out of selling my A4 and GTI to get said RS3, I decided against sourcing a set of seats as they actually had less bolstering and support than the GTI. They felt pretty comparable to the sport pkg seats in my A4 which are too wide to hold me in place. They're very comfortable, but I just don't fill them out enough for them to be a viable option for track use. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to resist the temptation of a set of diamond stitch RS3 seats haha

I'd spend money on a Simpson Hybrid-S before an aftermarket seat.

They don't make them anymore, but if you can find a used Mighty-Tite seat belt cincher... those things work fucking awesome for locking you into place with a 3pt belt. Way better than the CG-Lock which is a pain in the ass in my experience. Just looks a little silly because it's meant for child seats.. hah.

You need a 4pt roll bar for the back of the car (Autopower makes a decent one), and an FIA certified seat (otherwise with the other certs you must physically hard-mount the seat back to the roll bar - only the FIA certified stuff is meant to be floor mounted only), along with 5 or 6pt belts that are properly mounted/angled correctly.

Harness bars are stupid IMO. They're mounted directly to the B-pillar and in a side impact, will buckle the bar immediately, likely loosening or tightening the belts. A proper cage or 4pt+ roll bar is at least triangulated to minimize any distortion in a side impact.

That's a valid point you make regarding the harness bar on a side impact. The autopower roll bar looks nice, but then budget comes back into play once I add seats. Maybe I need to not be so cheap haha

The impression I'm getting now is that I should first look to upgrade to a harness of some variety before a seat. And if I do go for the single seat approach, a reclinable with stock belt is the best play if I want a chance at tech or an instructor not balking at the setup

 

[scrllock]

A harness bar and harnesses does sound more practical though, I'll have to price out a setup.

That's a valid point you make regarding the harness bar on a side impact. The autopower roll bar looks nice, but then budget comes back into play once I add seats. Maybe I need to not be so cheap haha

The impression I'm getting now is that I should first look to upgrade to a harness of some variety before a seat. And if I do go for the single seat approach, a reclinable with stock belt is the best play if I want a chance at tech or an instructor not balking at the setup

Personally I wouldn't use a harness bar for anything but autocross. It's not great to put it near your head for street use, and it presents its own safety issues on track (and so some orgs don't allow them unless it's a 4 point roll bar with backing plates).

If you and your group are comfortable with them, I think the best compromise option is Schroth Quickfit Pros with a HANS. I wouldn't both with another harness/bar setup unless it was 5+ points and a legit roll bar. The Quickfits do hold you in, and switching back to 3 points is just a matter of re-buckling.

To DerHase's point on the Hybrid S, it really is ideal since you're also safer riding in other people's 3-point cars. If you do add a harness, you want to be using some kind of HANS.

 

[tigeo]

There are several fixed-back seats that work safely/certified/tested with a 3-point/OE belt. The Cobra Nogaro and the Recaro Pole Position ABE are the two I know of. You lose your side airbag so will need a canceler (track-hack.com) to ensure the rest of the air bags work correctly. For ride alongs, I can see this being a grey area up to the instructor/club if you only have a fixed-back seat for you. These seats allow the belt receiver to clear the side of the seat and allows the belt to sit correctly/tightly across your hips.

Have you considered just using the inertial lock to keep yourself situated? Works well and I hardly move and my seats are the base Golf ones with v. little bolstering. This is what engages when you step on your brakes hard on the street (nefore you would hit a car in front of you for example), here, you are just pre-engaging it much like is done with child seats on vehicles that don't have LATCH. The gizmos that work for child seats to maintain tension on the belt or the old CG Lock only lock the lap belt portion in, not the shoulder like this does. I see no safety downsides in my research including reaching out to HMS Motorsport and the NHTSA (they were obviously more vague but did give some clues to their opinion):

You can see how planted I stay here:

The Simpson Hybrid S is a nice piece of kit and allows you to ride along in other's vehicles that have harnesses...basically a HANS that works no matter what the configuation is and is the only one that works with a standard 3-point OE belt.

The Schroth Quck Fit Pro wasn't tested in the MK7 and has to be modified (outboard front hole has to be enlarged to fit the OE seatbelt bolt) so keep that in mind. If you spend a few minutes studying this product including the certifications/testing, you'll see they are v. specific about which vehicles it was tested in, what certifications it has, and answering the question "Can I run this in a car not listed?". The testing is for seat back strength as the harness angle down steeply to the r. seat belt latches which is typically not considered safe for any harness b/c of the stress it puts on the back of the seat...hence why the seatback test was conducted and passed for the vehicles listed as being compatible. MK5 is the last VW it was tested in. Also note these aren't typical fixed harnesses, they have a tear-away portion that allows you to move forward a bit during impact much like a 3-point does.

In the end, this is a risk-assessment discussion and we all do that differently/are willing/not willing to take certain real or percieved risks. One person will give you "OMG YOU WILL DIE" and other will tell you it's fine. Spend the time to look into these various safety bits and see what your comfortable with and do you own risk assesement. The bottom line to me is you have two ends of the spectrum, either 100% stock or 100% race car. The middle is the muddy area where you need to decide which modifications meet your risk assessment criteria and will pass the group/club/event safety checks.

 

[DerHase]

The gizmos that work for child seats to maintain tension on the belt or the old CG Lock only lock the lap belt portion in, not the shoulder like this does.

My only correction to add is that you do the inertia lock trick, and then cinch down the Mighty Tite or whatever. It does result in locking everything solid when done correctly.

 

[tigeo]

My only correction to add is that you do the inertia lock trick, and then cinch down the Mighty Tite or whatever. It does result in locking everything solid when done correctly.

M-T-tight. Amazing name. Thanks for clarification.

 

[DerHase]

Yeah, the things look ridiculous but they work really well.

It is possible to overtighten them and stretch belts, etc so you need to use some sense.

It effectively removes the need to slide your seat back and forth to engage the inertia lock, and instead you use it to add enough tension that it doesn’t retract.

 

[scrllock]

Regarding aftermarket fixed-backs with stock belts (no roll bar), keep in mind these cars aren't porsches or lotuses. They don't have the crash structure of a Porsche coupe, so when someone points to those an example of factory bucket seat cars, remember we're not actually driving $25k 911s. The cobra/pole position only solve the problem of lap belt positioning, not the roof crumpling.

I'm not saying you'll die, but this is one reason that you may or may not pass tech with a half-assed seat/harness setup.

I was reminded of this the other day while shopping for an extra hood, googled the VIN of the chassis and this beauty popped up:

 

[tigeo]

Regarding aftermarket fixed-backs with stock belts (no roll bar), keep in mind these cars aren't porsches or lotuses. They don't have the crash structure of a Porsche coupe, so when someone points to those an example of factory bucket seat cars, remember we're not actually driving $25k 911s. The cobra/pole position only solve the problem of lap belt positioning, not the roof crumpling.

I'm not saying you'll die, but this is one reason that you may or may not pass tech with a half-assed seat/harness setup.

I was reminded of this the other day while shopping for an extra hood, googled the VIN of the chassis and this beauty popped up:

View attachment 296820

How does a fixed back and OE 3 point pose an issue in this case? You are more than likely fucked in your stock setup if that happens. A fixed back will pass tech without issue with a 3 point that fits correctly. Yes, this is the example of what could happen with a fixed-back seat + harness and no roll bar/cage.

 

[scrllock]

You don't want to be trapped upright in a rollover. Yes, 3 points are better than 4 in that case, but not ideal.

 

[tigeo]

You don't want to be trapped upright in a rollover. Yes, 3 points are better than 4 in that case, but not ideal.

How will you be any more trapped than an OE seat? The trapping would come from the harness not the seat.