Intercooler performance

[Diggs24]

Maybe BT guys should get the Mishimoto that’s spammed all over the threads..

It's probably a good unit.

 

[daconchslop]

Bottom line is NONE of the current options produce good results with MPI Hybrids

So what are solutions? Spray kits for the cooler?

 

[Diggs24]

meth

 

[daconchslop]

Not everyone wants drugs

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

meth

granted it’s Lower boost right now this is a snapshot of a log earlier and the dash read 98 Apple said it was 97...

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

Where basically all of the top performers would’ve stayed 5* over till redline in the same conditions if Diggs was making sub 350-400ish hp.

Bottom line is NONE of the current options produce good results with MPI Hybrids.

Good being defined as not gaining IAT after the initial drop.

I can’t help but wonder if this is just perspective based...due to using is20 results as the baseline of good.industry wise when comparing the deltas to other cars with 30+psi and turbos comparative in size are the result more along the lines of 5-10 over vs 15-20 over?

 

[GTI Jake]

The part in bold, can you explain how TIP and EGT are causing a high IAT.

What’s TIP?

Drive high pressure is a major strain on internals and after a certain point becomes a major restriction on flow on the hot and cold side.

Think of a engine like a simple pump. If the outlet is clogged efficiency goes out the window.

“Drive Pressure” is the opposite of Boost. It’s the pressure between the valves and the turbine disk (hot side of the turbo). In a perfect turbo application boost is equal to drive pressure (1:1 ratio).

Hybrid turbos are probably more like 1:4 at 550whp

So what are solutions? Spray kits for the cooler?

Spray kits are gimmicky decade old failed solution

meth

Meth can definitely help, but it’s a bandaid

I can’t help but wonder if this is just perspective based...due to using is20 results as the baseline of good.industry wise when comparing the deltas to other cars with 30+psi and turbos comparative in size are the result more along the lines of 5-10 over vs 15-20 over?

Don’t get caught up on numbers, boost is a measure of restriction (this blows people’s minds, but that’s a fact).

Take a step back and look at what I’m pointing out. Boost onset starts a downward trend in IAT. In a balanced set up (properly sized turbo and Intercooler) after onset the IAT value should continue to drop until a certain point and level off. If the trend switches directions and IAT climbs its because the heat exchanger has been overwhelmed and is becoming heat soaked.

None of these replies are aimed at anything other than my explanation based of experience. Please, nobody take my dry way of spelling things out as an attack of any kind lol

Regardless if we’re talking about a heat exchanger on an aircraft or a mk7 climbing numbers aren’t “good”

 

[oddspyke]

What’s TIP?

Drive high pressure is a major strain on internals and after a certain point becomes a major restriction on flow on the hot and cold side.

Think of a engine like a simple pump. If the outlet is clogged efficiency goes out the window.

“Drive Pressure” is the opposite of Boost. It’s the pressure between the valves and the turbine disk (hot side of the turbo). In a perfect turbo application boost is equal to drive pressure (1:1 ratio).

Hybrid turbos are probably more like 1:4 at 550whp




Spray kits are gimmicky decade old failed solution



Meth can definitely help, but it’s a bandaid




Don’t get caught up on numbers, boost is a measure of restriction (this blows people’s minds, but that’s a fact).

Take a step back and look at what I’m pointing out. Boost onset starts a downward trend in IAT. In a balanced set up (properly sized turbo and Intercooler) after onset the IAT value should continue to drop until a certain point and level off. If the trend switches directions and IAT climbs its because the heat exchanger has been overwhelmed and is becoming heat soaked.

None of these replies are aimed at anything other than my explanation based of experience. Please, nobody take my dry way of spelling things out as an attack of any kind lol

Regardless if we’re talking about a heat exchanger on an aircraft or a mk7 climbing numbers aren’t “good”

If I can piggy back off of Jake's comment here, the part about restriction is especially important.

The intake manifold, heads, valves and even size of the cylinder are all major restriction points here too. Getting 500hp worth of air into a 2.0 liter engine that wasn't designed for it is a major challenge and you have to compress the air a ton to get that level of flow. Compression adds a lot of heat. At a certain point, the intercooler getting bigger isn't going to help, you need to open up the restrictions down stream to increase flow without as much compression. Boost pressure doesn't make power, mass flow does. You just need a lot of pressure to push the flow through all the downstream choke points.

It's insane to me that people are pushing 2-3x factory power levels on the stock manifold and head, but pointing to the IC or turbo frame as the issue. It's also a testament to the initial design and flexibility of it I guess.

 

[Gvazquez]

That last part didnt really make sense because people are not seeing significant gains by using bigger manifolds.

 

[MonkeyMD]

Maybe BT guys should get the Mishimoto that’s spammed all over the threads..

It's probably a good unit.

Flow test has been done for Mishimoto by Jeff. I know that's not the be all, end all of intercooler performance, but from reading on here, it seems that intercoolers that are in the mid range perform the best in our cars. I.e. Not too much flow or too little. Those are APR and Unitronic. Mishimoto is right there.

http://mygolfmk7.com/2020/04/mishimoto-intercooler-flow-test/

 

[Navi]

I don't think there's any definitive way to say which intercooler is best. Most recent reviews basically say that same intercooler on your setup could be shit on someone else's. Not the intercoolers fault, but so many variables to account for. So at this point when someone says an intercooler sucks, I'll just reply.. on your setup. IE sucked on my setup, performs well on other setups. AMS performs well on my setup. Not sure about AMS on other setups.

 

[GTI_Owner]

What’s TIP?

Drive high pressure is a major strain on internals and after a certain point becomes a major restriction on flow on the hot and cold side.

Think of a engine like a simple pump. If the outlet is clogged efficiency goes out the window.

“Drive Pressure” is the opposite of Boost. It’s the pressure between the valves and the turbine disk (hot side of the turbo). In a perfect turbo application boost is equal to drive pressure (1:1 ratio).

Hybrid turbos are probably more like 1:4 at 550whp




Spray kits are gimmicky decade old failed solution



Meth can definitely help, but it’s a bandaid




Don’t get caught up on numbers, boost is a measure of restriction (this blows people’s minds, but that’s a fact).

Take a step back and look at what I’m pointing out. Boost onset starts a downward trend in IAT. In a balanced set up (properly sized turbo and Intercooler) after onset the IAT value should continue to drop until a certain point and level off. If the trend switches directions and IAT climbs its because the heat exchanger has been overwhelmed and is becoming heat soaked.

None of these replies are aimed at anything other than my explanation based of experience. Please, nobody take my dry way of spelling things out as an attack of any kind lol

Regardless if we’re talking about a heat exchanger on an aircraft or a mk7 climbing numbers aren’t “good”

TIP - Turbine Inlet Pressure. Similar to what you are calling drive pressure.

How is TIP aka drive pressure causing the IAT to rise? That was what you said when you said the high drive pressure and high EGT is adding up to high IAT. I'm not following how the condition in the exhaust would be driving up the temperature in the intake.

If I can piggy back off of Jake's comment here, the part about restriction is especially important.

The intake manifold, heads, valves and even size of the cylinder are all major restriction points here too. Getting 500hp worth of air into a 2.0 liter engine that wasn't designed for it is a major challenge and you have to compress the air a ton to get that level of flow. Compression adds a lot of heat. At a certain point, the intercooler getting bigger isn't going to help, you need to open up the restrictions down stream to increase flow without as much compression. Boost pressure doesn't make power, mass flow does. You just need a lot of pressure to push the flow through all the downstream choke points.

It's insane to me that people are pushing 2-3x factory power levels on the stock manifold and head, but pointing to the IC or turbo frame as the issue. It's also a testament to the initial design and flexibility of it I guess.

Boost pressure is what produces more mass flow.

 

[GTI_Owner]

I don't think there's any definitive way to say which intercooler is best. Most recent reviews basically say that same intercooler on your setup could be shit on someone else's. Not the intercoolers fault, but so many variables to account for. So at this point when someone says an intercooler sucks, I'll just reply.. on your setup. IE sucked on my setup, performs well on other setups. AMS performs well on my setup. Not sure about AMS on other setups.

Unless one car setup is more demanding than the other, like an IS20 at stock boost being compared to a big turbo at 35 psi , how an IC performs on one car versus another isn't a roll of the dice.

 

[Navi]

Unless one car setup is more demanding than the other, like an IS20 at stock boost being compared to a big turbo at 35 psi , how an IC performs on one car versus another isn't a roll of the dice.

ah right! I worded that like a complete idiot. That's what I get for not having my tea yet. But yes what I meant was that some people will swear by one brand intercooler, but that intercooler may work well with one setup but not on a different setup. So you can't just say one intercooler is one size fits all.

Good catch. No idea what I was thinking when I typed that backwards.

 

[billbadass]

Where basically all of the top performers would’ve stayed 5* over till redline in the same conditions if Diggs was making sub 350-400ish hp.

Bottom line is NONE of the current options produce good results with MPI Hybrids.

Good being defined as not gaining IAT after the initial drop.

and basically what you are saying is that a hybrid turbo on MK7 is just not efficient enough and is making tons of hot air that no air/air intercooler can overcome?

the intercooler volume of these OEM location setups are easily as large as what other 550-650+ setups use on other platforms so on paper it should be more than enough intercooler