Upgrade RSB only or do both RSB+FSB?

[Bohaha]

Hello fellow Mk7 GTI enthusiasts.
TLDR:. Is upgrading both the Rear Stabilzer Bar (RSB) and Front stabilzer bar (FSB) worth doing as a pair, versus only upgrading the RSB?

My goals and introduction. I am looking to dial out the understeer on my GTI (2017 Autobahn with PP/DCC). The car is stock right now except for JB4. I am about to start on handling upgrades. The car will mainly be driven on streets (and during winter in Minnesota ;-) and occasional spirited driving and HPDE.

I want to sharpen up the handling without ruining daily driveability. My previous car was an NC Miata, and while I know I can't expect to get the level of steering feedback I loved on that car, I do want to make the GTI more neutral (get rid of the OEM understeer) and increase the steering response (to the extent that is possible).

I also value a smooth roll transition which is fundamental to my question about replacing both RSB+FSB versus the RSB alone.

Is a matched RSB+FSB from a reputable vendor going to result in a better car balance transition in a corner,? Or is the subframe procedure such a PITA for me or trusted mechanic that the FSB would not be worth it? (I.e are there good RSB only upgrades that don't create poor roll transition)

Thanks in advance for input based on real world experience.

 

[DerHase]

Hello fellow Mk7 GTI enthusiasts.
TLDR:. Is upgrading both the Rear Stabilzer Bar (RSB) and Front stabilzer bar (FSB) worth doing as a pair, versus only upgrading the RSB?

My goals and introduction. I am looking to dial out the understeer on my GTI (2017 Autobahn with PP/DCC). The car is stock right now except for JB4. I am about to start on handling upgrades. The car will mainly be driven on streets (and during winter in Minnesota ;-) and occasional spirited driving and HPDE.

I want to sharpen up the handling without ruining daily driveability. My previous car was an NC Miata, and while I know I can't expect to get the level of steering feedback I loved on that car, I do want to make the GTI more neutral (get rid of the OEM understeer) and increase the steering response (to the extent that is possible).

I also value a smooth roll transition which is fundamental to my question about replacing both RSB+FSB versus the RSB alone.

Is a matched RSB+FSB from a reputable vendor going to result in a better car balance transition in a corner,? Or is the subframe procedure such a PITA for me or trusted mechanic that the FSB would not be worth it? (I.e are there good RSB only upgrades that don't create poor roll transition)

Thanks in advance for input based on real world experience.

I'm on stock springs, with Koni FSD shocks, 034 camber mounts, and Powerflex offset LCA bushings (roughly -2.8 deg camber up front, -1.8 rear for reference).

I have H&R 26mm front bar, and 26mm rear bar.
Normally they pair a 28mm front with the 26mm rear, or the 26mm front with the 24mm rear.

I chose to do 26 at both ends as I figured I didn't want to add more roll stiffness up front and make it understeer.

I've driven the car with stock front bar and 26mm rear. It felt good.

Added the front bar and ran with it on soft. Felt better.

In May of this year I got the chance to use a full day for test and tune going out on track as much as I wanted over the course of 8hrs. Front bar on full stiff was notably faster (plus was able to carry more speed in near every corner). Makes me want to try and test out the 28mm front bar... but the reality is that the gains would likely be so small (if any) that any testing would prove inconclusive.

Tire wear is pretty good as it is now, if anything it needs more camber up front.

I also have data from other cars with VERY expensive suspension setups... and this one is faster than or within a couple mph min corner speeds in every turn at VIR. It's a VERY good bang for the buck setup.

People get way too drawn to lowering when it hurts geometry on a strut car IMO. Especially when there is limited bump travel. If you hit the bumpstops mid-corner (and/or if they're progressive bump stops and you compress them too much) then the front spring rate goes closer to ∞ and the car will push like a freight train.

I have videos from all the below outings on my channel. Keep in mind from Dec to Feb (going from stock front bar to 26mm front, both with 26mm rear) was also with a power increase, and from RT660 to V730 tires (less grippy, I hate them).

I do suspect that if you don't also add camber up front, that a bigger front bar may well make the car push worse.

10/23/2022	Track Daze (Fastivus)	Summit Jefferson Ext.	01:26.10	Put DS1.11 rear pads on, along with 26mm H&R rear sway bar. Car felt amazing. DO88 intercooler was also installed which helps greatly with consistency. Fastest lap was lap #4 in final (third) session of the day. Every time prior it has been one of the first couple laps out. Hot tire pressures seemed best at 31-32psi up front, and 33-34psi rear. Day started out at ~40F ambient in first session, ended around 65F.
12/10/22 - 12/11/22	TSCC	VIR Full	02:17.31	APR trans tune installed. 034 upper/lower torque mount inserts installed. Car felt great. Ran 32psi front/31psi rear hot. No problems with IATs at all, plateud at +10F over ambient under throttle. 40F-50F most of the weekend.
2/10/23 - 2/11/23	TSCC	VIR Full	02:14.97	8BP ECU tune added. H&R 26mm front sway bar, Superpro front forward LCA bushings, RS3 solid LCA rearward bushings installed. Kumho V730(245/40R17) added. Switched to Endless RF650 brake fluid. Zero problems with brakes. Front tires seemed to get greasy very quickly. Targeted 31/31psi. Per Andy Hollis may want to try a bit less pressure. Also tires being brand new may have needed this first "scrubbing in" to get better. Tire wear seemed very good with the front sway bar added (which was run on the soft setting, did not experiment with the harder setting).
5/26/23 - 5/28/23	Private Test Day/TSCC 2-Day HPDE	VIR Full	02:12.55	Running my own "OS" tune now. Similar overall power to the prior used 8BP tune (same overall speeds on straights, etc). Swapped Superpro LCA bushings for offset Powerflex bushings for more camber. Tested back to back stiff vs soft sway bar with 30 and 35psi tire pressures over 4 sessions. H&R 26mm FSB set to STIFF with 34-35psi hot worked best. Brakes up front get grabby as session goes on. AAT ~62F when best lap was set in second session of the morning. Tire wear is excellent. Front rotors/pads brand new for this event (DS3.12/Zimmerman blanks). Potentially VCDS tweaks to blame for brake problems. "Brake booster" set to 2 at this time, to be experimented with before/at next event.
7/20/2023	SCCA TNiA	VIR Full	02:18.52	90-95F ambient temps, ran in the afternoon only. "Brake booster" was set back to 5 and didn’t really have any notable issues with brakes, but heat was slowing the car itself down. Had excessive KR, believe due to oil from PCV being ingested. 10-15 deg avg KR at times. Consistently 5 deg of KR in every session. First time with hood vent installed, even in the heat was able to beat on the car the entire time with no coolant problems, and oil never exceeded 275F. PCV needs taken care of and then heat situation re-evaluated. Car seemed much more stable at speed with the hood vent addition.

Keeping the front end from getting into positive camber (as badly) is why the FSB is a huge help on these cars in particular.



I'm in more of a "get it mostly right and then just drive the car" kind of mindset. Too many people in the VW community buy coilovers and every damn suspension accessory under the sun and they're still 4 seconds off of Spec Miata times. I've done stuff to my car obviously - but it's essentially all to get tire wear under control and not get stupid over curbs at 120mph... going faster is just a side benefit.

 

[Bohaha]

@DerHase - Thanks. You've given a lot of data to unpack!
I think for me, the things that stand out from your experience are:
1. Good FSB is important for reducing getting the car into a dynamic positive camber
2. You went with H&R sways of same diam. I believe the HR front is adjustable. Yes? So perhaps that allows you to add more torsion to stiffen up the front.
3. H&R 26mm rear with factory FSB worked fine too
4. You stayed with stock springs and added camber with 034 camber/castor plate and LCA. ( I have been thinking about how to add a bit more neg camber but that's another discussion)

Was the cost/labor in installing the FSB ever an issue?

 

[tigeo]

I'm with DerHase on his comments. FSB is a nice add with more neg camber and good tires. I don't feel it is bad as a daily but on an uneven surface you can get some rocking back/forth that is clearly more extreme than the stockers. I have a pic like his posted below from the same turn at VIR ("Oak Tree") and while not perfect w/r to the same photo angle, it's close enough and shows the same thing...less front roll which will help keep camber gain under control and help turning with less plowing (2021 stock FSB/upgraded RSB and 2022 upgraded FSB and RSB). I have a similar setup but I'm on H&R lowering springs; my Golf is not a GTI so our stock springs are softer/taller and getting springs closer in rate to the OE R springs with a bit of mild lowering in combination with Bilstein dampers doesn't seem to have hurt my car's handling much. I have -2.0 camber up front and -1.6 out back from a combo of Eurosport camber mounts and Superpro LCAs....I would like to have a little more but my tire wear is acceptable and the ride is reasonable with the Eurosport mounts. My front and rear sway bars are H&R for the awd MQB so 27mm up front and 25mm out back; I run the front on the stiff setting, rear is non-adjustable. I paid a shop to do my FSB, I can't recall the cost b/c I combined with a lot of other stuff but it's a subframe out job so this isn't something that will be a simple 1 hour deal at a shop.

 

[DerHase]

@DerHase - Thanks. You've given a lot of data to unpack!
I think for me, the things that stand out from your experience are:
1. Good FSB is important for reducing getting the car into a dynamic positive camber
2. You went with H&R sways of same diam. I believe the HR front is adjustable. Yes? So perhaps that allows you to add more torsion to stiffen up the front.
3. H&R 26mm rear with factory FSB worked fine too
4. You stayed with stock springs and added camber with 034 camber/castor plate and LCA. ( I have been thinking about how to add a bit more neg camber but that's another discussion)

Was the cost/labor in installing the FSB ever an issue?

1. Good FSB is important for reducing getting the car into a dynamic positive camber
Yes. It's a good way to add roll stiffness without resorting to heavier springs or coilovers that ride like a bag of dicks.

2. You went with H&R sways of same diam. I believe the HR front is adjustable. Yes? So perhaps that allows you to add more torsion to stiffen up the front.
Correct. I found front on stiff to be better in the dry. I haven't tested softening it specifically for the wet, but conventional wisdom would say that less grip = less body roll, so less roll control is necessary. I don't really care to spend that much effort doing that.

3. H&R 26mm rear with factory FSB worked fine too
Yeah, it's not a bad idea to toss it on if you want to put off installing the front... but the front helped a lot more once added. You can feel the front end "lean" diagonally onto the outside corner in a turn without the bigger FSB.

4. You stayed with stock springs and added camber with 034 camber/castor plate and LCA. ( I have been thinking about how to add a bit more neg camber but that's another discussion)
Yeah, I have no issues with the 034 plates. I have the regular camber mounts, not the "camster" ones which came out after I purchased. Either one should help. The offset LCA bushings I kind of hate, because they creak over driveway transitions, etc. My old (non-offset) Superpro bushings I never had this issue with. I'll likely be switching to either different LCAs or ball joints to add more camber yet and remove the offset bushings in the process. Hasn't been a huge priority - will likely worry about over the winter.

Was the cost/labor in installing the FSB ever an issue?
No, I did the work myself in my garage. I have a set of quickjacks which makes things pretty easy short of having an actual lift. I was also a tech for 17yrs up until earlier this year... so mechanic work isn't an issue. As @tigeo said it's a subframe out (or at least loosened) job, so I'd count on paying for 3-4hrs of labor, worst case scenario.

 

[manu97]

Don't forget, it's probably best to get an alignment post FSB install - so if you can do other mods that require an alignment at the same time, you may save some $$$.

 

[Bohaha]

Agreed. A precision alignment after any suspension work goes without question in my mind.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Agreed. A precision alignment after any suspension work goes without question in my mind.

What's more important it what the alignment specs are.

If you just tell the techs to put it back to stock, you are leaving time on the table.

 

[Bohaha]

Well heck. Now after a little more research (links that xXDavidCXx has in their signature), I'm considering not touching the suspension at all. I really don't want to "seem" to tighten up handling but mess up the driveability, stability, and transition in poor (wet, snow, ice) conditions.

Now I'm thinking the best thing to do is
1. Get lighter wheels to reduce unsprung weight
2. Get a new alignment (need to do more research on good target specs)
3. Do a DCC recalibration

 

[SPLR337]

I daily drive my car in NYC. As mentioned in other threads, I added a H&R rear sway, which was nice, but I really noticed an improvement when I had a matching front sway installed (the front would lean as mentioned above). Those paired with the eurosport accessories camber pucks really helped make my commute enjoyable. I do my best to avoid rougher roads, but I would do that in any vehicle.

 

[tigeo]

Well heck. Now after a little more research (links that xXDavidCXx has in their signature), I'm considering not touching the suspension at all. I really don't want to "seem" to tighten up handling but mess up the driveability, stability, and transition in poor (wet, snow, ice) conditions.

Now I'm thinking the best thing to do is
1. Get lighter wheels to reduce unsprung weight
2. Get a new alignment (need to do more research on good target specs)
3. Do a DCC recalibration

Unless you are tracking/auto cross consinstently, the factory alignment settings are just fine IMHO. Zero-ing out toe will create more instability (wondering while driving in a straight line) on the highway and going toe out which will help turning in autocross for example, will eat up your tires on the street. You can only adjust toe and r. camber on these cars. F. camber/caster are set beyond evening them up side to side by messing with the subframe. I have no issues tracking my car with factory toe settings but I do have added negative camber + positive caster which helps out with tire wear and handling. The big handling upgrade is a set of fixed camber plates (034, SuperPro, Eurosport) with a set of sway bars and sport dampers.

 

[GoatAutomotive]

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...e-detailed-review-fsb-database-inside.420176/

Derhase and Tigeo were my chief sources of inspiration, so it’s great that they chimed in so fast.

My write-up and in depth review above. Some different perspectives with the same outcome:

An upgraded 27-28mm FSB makes a huge difference on these cars if you drive them hard/proper/spirited.

Good sticky tires, wider lighter wheels, Negative camber and good sway bars + endlinks make the largest all around improvement in handling on these cars, as do uprated dampers (for non-DCC cars).

Adding stiffer bars effectively adds spring rate in lateral cornering situations, which is awesome, since 80% of the aftermarket springs for this platform have a horribly insufficient rate (for anything beyond street driving and Cars & Coffee meets).

Lots of people fear the FSB install:

It’s not bad at ALL if you have/invest in the proper tools and supporting items.

See my thread above, read post #1 and #19 for the FSB specific info.

Read the whole thing if you really like to learn and be entertained.

 

[Bohaha]

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...e-detailed-review-fsb-database-inside.420176/

Derhase and Tigeo were my chief sources of inspiration, so it’s great that they chimed in so fast.

My write-up and in depth review above. Some different perspectives with the same outcome:

An upgraded 27-28mm FSB makes a huge difference on these cars if you drive them hard/proper/spirited.

Good sticky tires, wider lighter wheels, Negative camber and good sway bars + endlinks make the largest all around improvement in handling on these cars, as do uprated dampers (for non-DCC cars).

Adding stiffer bars effectively adds spring rate in lateral cornering situations, which is awesome, since 80% of the aftermarket springs for this platform have a horribly insufficient rate (for anything beyond street driving and Cars & Coffee meets).

Lots of people fear the FSB install:

It’s not bad at ALL if you have/invest in the proper tools and supporting items.

See my thread above, read post #1 and #19 for the FSB specific info.

Read the whole thing if you really like to learn and be entertained.

On my way to read those posts. It's great to have community on this sweet car.

 

[GoatAutomotive]

On my way to read those posts. It's great to have community on this sweet car.

Agreed. Just stay away from the Facebook groups. They are pure trash when you need help.

 

[tigeo]

Agreed. Just stay away from the Facebook groups. They are pure trash when you need help.

Some are better than others but in general less bro science here.