Max summer/200TW tire discussion - fun data inside

[pseudorealityx]

Which Continentals? They have a half dozen UHP/Summer offerings.

They actually only have 2 that come in a range of sizes that we would use. Most of the others only come in 1 or 2 sizes, and aren't appropriate for us.

The Continental ExtremeContact Sport = similar to Michelin PS4S
The Continental ExtremeContact Force = trackday tire that wears well

 

[tigeo]

Maybe I don't have much to offer...but I'm gonna.
I have the 615s and wish I didn't.
Want to buy them? They have 6 autox days on them.
I very much wish I had gone with the crowd and data and bought 660s.

There is another GTI in my local group that is regularly beating the daylights out of me and his only mod of note is that he has 660s in GS class. AND he's a great driver, but I can't hold his line. These tires are like plastic. It's turrrrible

** Cries in 615k+ **

Because those tires arne't made for what you are doing. 615s are basically a HPDE/lapping tire, not a get hot immediately/send it AutoX tire.

 

[tigeo]

Nothing is going to go 10k miles and multiple track days or autocross if you're actually trying to go fast. Once you're going to dual purpose tires, you still have various spectrum on the street performance vs. track performance criteria. The Continental Force's are probably the best dual purpose as far as longevity if you still want to be reasonably quick. They wear well on track, but they aren't going to be as fast as the top tier tires, and aren't going to last as long as Conti ECS PS4S on the street.

I've run Continental ExtremeContactSport and PS4S, and then went a bit more hardcore and went to RT-660's on my GTI. Since then, went a different direction with the GTI, softening it up, now that I have a more dedicated motorsports vehicle.

Just a post this week on the VW Racers FB group about the Forces being hot garbage complete wiht testimonials and pics of them destroyed/falling apart.

 

[GoatAutomotive]

My fat Mk8 R likes the RS4 quite a bit. My "winter" tires are the OE 240tw Goodyear Super Sports which are surprisingly good for an OE tire.

Thank you, neighbor. That's cool to hear.

I'm beginning to suspect that I need to bite the bullet and just save for a dedicated set of track wheels and tires, 17x9 or 18x8.5. It's a pricey up front investment (when you're cash strapped like I am as a single parent), but it preserves some integrity on the street tires for sure.

I've loved/preferred keeping one set of tires this year (for all of my track time thus far) because it's allowed me to get better acquainted with the limits and behavior of the Michelins that I run full time. And the simplicity.

 

[tigeo]

Thank you, neighbor. That's cool to hear.

I'm beginning to suspect that I need to bite the bullet and just save for a dedicated set of track wheels and tires, 17x9 or 18x8.5. It's a pricey up front investment (when you're cash strapped like I am as a single parent), but it preserves some integrity on the street tires for sure.

I've loved/preferred keeping one set of tires this year (for all of my track time thus far) because it's allowed me to get better acquainted with the limits and behavior of the Michelins that I run full time. And the simplicity.

A set of 17x9s with some 245 or 255 200s for track separate from your street summers is the way to go man.

Also - any tire or brake pad post equals for the same tire/brake pad a range of "hot garbage" to "love it"...keep that in mind. So many variables from driver to track etc. that it's really hard to generalize what works and doesn't. I've seen it here already. Falken 660s are super popular and folks I know/have talked to love them on the MK7s but you hate Falken from experience on a different car. Folks saying the Conti Force are great, VW track FB group had pictures of them completely falling apart/lots of hate. Always keep this in mind on this topic. Even the budg-o tires I have many hate but some have had a good experience (including me!). I tend to try to average things out and depend more on testing (if I can find it) vs. personal subjective online opinions for this stuff b/c of the issue I stated above.

 

[bentin]

Thank you, neighbor. That's cool to hear.

I'm beginning to suspect that I need to bite the bullet and just save for a dedicated set of track wheels and tires, 17x9 or 18x8.5. It's a pricey up front investment (when you're cash strapped like I am as a single parent), but it preserves some integrity on the street tires for sure.

I've loved/preferred keeping one set of tires this year (for all of my track time thus far) because it's allowed me to get better acquainted with the limits and behavior of the Michelins that I run full time. And the simplicity.

You're welcome to borrow mine for a day or two, leave me that GTO as collateral.

 

[DerHase]

Edited 5/18 to add more notes to each.

Falken RT660 - my favorite do all tire. They're damn fast for the first 10ish min of a session before greasing up a bit. Even then they're manageable. Did 7 days on track (6 at VIR and 1 at Summit Point on the Jefferson circuit), plus about 8k miles and sold them with 4 to 6/32 on all of them. (But worn shoulders). Could have used for another full weekend easily, but I already bought new tires partway through the season so decided to throw new tires on for 2023.

Additional notes: I've burned through 1 set on my GTI, and IIRC 2 or 3 sets on my old Mazda2 on track. These things are basically the best qualities of the old RE71R and just as sticky, but have considerably stronger shoulders that resist wear a bit better than the old Bridgestones did. I have NOT driven the new RE71RS. Just to be clear I cannot compare to that one. These are not amazeballs in the rain, but they're not dangerous or anything either. At full tread they're pretty decent but will hydroplane in deep standing water. Not as good as Conti ECS for STANDING water, but better if the track is just damp. I would get 4-5 days on an abrasive track (NCCAR) on my Mazda2 for reference. I wouldn't be at the cords, but low enough (say 2-3/32) that I'd sell them off or give them away at that point.. I joke that it costs me more to run at VIR for $550/weekend than it costs to run at NCCAR for free. These things do heat cycle out eventually. Wasn't super noticeable until my last weekend on track with the GTI. Probably had about 20 hard heat cycles over the first 5 days on track. They were noticeably less grippy my last time out on them in December for days 6+7 on track. Also these things get pretty loud as they wear more.

Kumho V730 - believe is a bit slower than RT660 but may last longer (only one track weekend and a couple auto-x so far). Fucking terrifying in the rain with standing water. Fine in the damp.

Additional notes: I'm partway through my first "set" of 6 tires now. I have (4) 245/40R17s and (2) 255/40R17s. I have tire machines so plan is to swap between the 245 square setup for track (so I can rotate front/back/left/right throughout the weekend as necessary), and run a reverse staggered 255/245 setup for auto-x. They have decent feel overall. More responsive at full tread vs RT660 at full tread, but feels similar to a worn RT660 as the Falken will have more tread squirm when new. These don't feel like they have as much "bite" as the RT660 did on turn in. These things are great for the price *IF* you don't plan to run in the rain/have another set for rain. A set cost ~$200 less than RT660 which was why I went with them this time around. In this video you can see how close I came to losing my shit. Audio scrubbed for obvious reasons. This was plain and simple me not driving within mine/the tire's limits. There's a big "river" that runs across the back straight in hard rain. This happened in the second session of the day and it had gotten way worse vs the first session.

Hankook RS4 - lasts forever. Vague feel.

Additional notes: LOTS of meat on the shoulders. Lasts a long time. On my Mazda2 I averaged 7-9 days on an abrasive track (NCCAR prior to the "kink" being added). They feel pretty good if you stretch the shit out of them. I ran a 225/45R15 on 15x9 wheels, and 195/50R15s on 7.5 or 8in wheels. Never get greasy unless you're overdriving the balls off of them. Worse in the rain than RT660, way better than V730 though. Not great even in the damp but not what I'd call unsafe. Just much lower limits even when full tread.

Original RE71R - This tire is no longer available and is NOT to be confused with the newer RE71RS - just mentioning as a basis for comparison for those who HAVE used it before - fast for a lap then falls off. Wears like soft cheese. Not available anymore but figured I'd mention for reference. Haven't used the new RE71RS yet.

Additional notes: FAST for a single lap or two. I went through 3 sets of these on my Mazda2... I averaged 2 days at NCCAR for comparison. About 25% the life of RS4s. IMO they're better for auto-x than any of the other tires I tried, except MAYBE the RT660s. These things were awesome in the damp and pretty decent at full tread in standing water (but still not as good as Conti ECS). Super responsive turn in. Very "edgy" to drive. Once you exceed the limits you know it and it communicates well. Likes a very "precise" driving style. Edges wear out super quickly.

RT615K+ - Slow vs the above, but actually a lot of fun because they like tons of slip angle.

Additional notes: Never ran on my own cars, but I've driven a few friends' cars on track. These things are FUN to drive on honestly. Lots of slip angle is where they make peak grip (not to be confused with overdriving!). Don't do anything exceptionally well. I have no personal experience in the wet so can't comment on that, but I've heard they're not great. Probably not worse than the V730 if I had to guess.

Continental ExtremeContactSport (ECS) - fantastic all around daily tire as long as there's no snow, and also excellent rain (standing water) tire on track. Have been replaced by the ECS 02 which by all accounts is better in every way.

Additional notes: These are insanely good for a daily driver tire. Sidewalls aren't silly stiff like the super 200TW tires so will feel more numb by comparison. Where these shine is in the wet on track though. If it is raining hard and there is standing water, these or the ECS 02 are the tires of choice. The Michelin PS4S are a comparable tire but I've not run them on anything for any real amount of time to personally comment on. I originally bought a set for my wife's Mazda2, and paired with really lightweight wheels they made the car a LOT of fun to toss around on the street. Found out just how good they were in the wet, so bought ANOTHER set of them for my own Mazda2 for rain track use and daily driving. I actually just recently bought a full set for my GTI. I picked up a free set of bummy looking 17x7.5 OEM wheels which are currently getting painted. I will be putting some 215/50R17 ECS on them. Why smaller than stock? They're strictly for standing water on track. Smaller overall diameter = lower COG also. Plus if you haven't checked out the Tirerack test on wheel vs tire width... this is worth reading/watching the video:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=296

 

[MonkeyMD]

BS. That's the difference between GS and AS.

People always want to blame the tires, or the car, or whatever. If you're 2 seconds off, it's YOU. The end.

Yep. Found out the humbling way

 

[krs]

Thank you, neighbor. That's cool to hear.

I'm beginning to suspect that I need to bite the bullet and just save for a dedicated set of track wheels and tires, 17x9 or 18x8.5. It's a pricey up front investment (when you're cash strapped like I am as a single parent), but it preserves some integrity on the street tires for sure.

I've loved/preferred keeping one set of tires this year (for all of my track time thus far) because it's allowed me to get better acquainted with the limits and behavior of the Michelins that I run full time. And the simplicity.

Shameless plug, I’ll have a set of 18x8.5 Motegi race wheels for sale here shortly. Can’t speak to trackability, but have been great for autox and my RT660’s.

They’re just a smidge too tight for comfort on my new brakes, or I’d keep them. Think they’re just under 19lbs.

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Shameless plug, I’ll have a set of 18x8.5 Motegi race wheels for sale here shortly. Can’t speak to trackability, but have been great for autox and my RT660’s.

They’re just a smidge too tight for comfort on my new brakes, or I’d keep them. Think they’re just under 19lbs.

You sly dog, you!

DM me some pictures when you get a minute. Preferably on the car if they’re still there.

 

[krs]

You sly dog, you!

DM me some pictures when you get a minute. Preferably on the car if they’re still there.

Here’s a pic from my last event. I can’t send a pic in a direct message, so sorry to deviate from your thread topic. Tires are 255/35 RT660’s.

 

[scrllock]

Reserved for more detailed breakdown later tonight/tomorrow. But here are the abbreviated notes for now:

RT660 - my favorite do all tire. They're damn fast for the first 10ish min of a session before greasing up a bit. Even then they're manageable. Did 7 days on track, plus about 8k miles and sold them with 4 to 6/32 on all of them. (But worn shoulders).

V730 - believe is a bit slower than RT660 but may last longer (only one track weekend and a couple auto-x so far). Fucking terrifying in the rain with standing water. Fine in the damp.

RS4 - lasts forever. Vague feel.

Original RE71R - fast for a lap then falls off. Wears like soft cheese. Not available anymore but figured I'd mention for reference. Haven't used the new RE71RS yet.

RT615K+ - Slow vs the above, but actually a lot of fun because they like tons of slip angle.

Conti ECS - fantastic all around daily tire as long as there's no snow, and also excellent rain (standing water) tire on track.

+1 v730 lasting a bit longer and terrifying in the rain. I started taking mine as a spare set after getting stuck with them on a wet 2hr drive back from track.

If you have the budget, PS4S really might fit the bill. I think they're a bit better than ECS in every way, and you can certainly take them to a track day, they just overheat much quicker than endurance 200tws (615k+, rs4, ECF, etc.). They also last a good bit longer, if you're looking to hit 10k+ miles. My current rears are going to dry rot before they run out of tread.

 

[tigeo]

+1 v730 lasting a bit longer and terrifying in the rain. I started taking mine as a spare set after getting stuck with them on a wet 2hr drive back from track.

If you have the budget, PS4S really might fit the bill. I think they're a bit better than ECS in every way, and you can certainly take them to a track day, they just overheat much quicker than endurance 200tws (615k+, rs4, ECF, etc.). They also last a good bit longer, if you're looking to hit 10k+ miles. My current rears are going to dry rot before they run out of tread.

I know several folks that have used PS4S on the track and they work but won't hold up lap after lap/get greasy. I run ESC for my street summer tires...they are v. good and a bit less $$ than PS4S, I'm sticking with them...the slight difference in dry grip is meaningless to me on the street.

 

[bentin]

I've seen PS4S get destroyed on city roads, they hate heat.

 

[tigeo]

I've seen PS4S get destroyed on city roads, they hate heat.

How is someone driving that hard on the street to destroy a PS4S?