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2017 Fusion Sport V6TT AWD

PLF8593

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Philly
Car(s)
19 Alltrack 6MT
As it is, none of the American car makers is running even a thousand dollars profit per car, overall, compared to like $2k/car with Toyota. So it's very unlikely we'll see anything remotely like an American A4 or 330i.


Really???? This is how little money auto manufacturers make per vehicle sold? Thats difficult for me to wrap my head around. Not accusing you of misinformation, but do you have a link to an article explaining how/why??
 

takemorepills

Ready to race!
Location
USA
Really???? This is how little money auto manufacturers make per vehicle sold? Thats difficult for me to wrap my head around. Not accusing you of misinformation, but do you have a link to an article explaining how/why??

I've heard the same thing. Some cars the manufacturers only make a few hundred dollars on, if any.

Big SUVs and full size trucks are where manufacturers make thousands, tens of thousands in profit. They take a basic chassis (well, new Ford aluminum trucks probably actually cost a bit more than traditional trucks) that can be very stripped, or load it up with fancy paint, cheap chrome, etc etc, nothing that really changes what the truck can do and sell it for $60K+
 

2slowvw

Moderator
Location
VA
Car(s)
2022 Tesla Model 3
Really???? This is how little money auto manufacturers make per vehicle sold? Thats difficult for me to wrap my head around. Not accusing you of misinformation, but do you have a link to an article explaining how/why??

I found this article:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...r-car-profits-beat-ford-gm-chrysler/23852189/

it basically is in line with what he said. Sounds a little off. Not sure how they are making so little on each car, but it appears that they suggest the pension costs for the employees is factored in.
 

TheWombat

Go Kart Champion
Location
Vermont
American car makers grew exponentially after WWII in an artificially boosted market. They had the equivalent of a closed marketplace, because until the 1960s and 1970s imports were a mere drop in the bucket of car sales. They had an economy with explosive growth overall, and a population of boomers itching to buy cars. They had an industrial base built up and magnified by WWII and the development of the military industrial complex of the Cold War, and they had, until the mid-1970s, a relatively benign regulatory environment.

Most of all, they had really cheap gas. In short, it would have been nearly impossible for them to lose money no matter how poor their decision making was. And as the legion of books about Detroit that are available can tell you, they did indeed make really poor decisions. Those bad decisions, though, didn't come home to roost until the 1980s or so, and then snowballed until the collapse of the last decade, circa 2007-9.

During the boom times, though, the infrastructure of Detroit was bloated, internally to the companies and externally, with the unions and the dealer networks. So much money was lost to friction, but it didn't matter, because so much more money was rolling in. When the margins shrunk--thanks to OPEC, regulations, changing consumer demands, globalization, etcl.--the friction stayed...the same. Oops. Stuff like high minimum wages, the infamous job bank (where laid-off union workers would be paid to essentially sit around doing nothing until new jobs could be found for them), health care costs for an aging workforce, pensions, massive corporate officer salaries, grossly inefficient physical plants, etc. all started to eat away at the profits. But most importantly, arrogance had made the big three unwilling--or unable--to see the change in consumer demand. They had, for so long, told people what they wanted, that they literally could not process the idea that consumers wanted something entirely different.

tl;dr, today's much more intelligent, much leaner American car makers are still suffering from the legacy of the past half century or more, which will take a long time to get out from under. Companies like Toyota, starting essentially from scratch in a bombed out Japan, were able to build infrastructures that were much, much leaner, and much, much more rational. The Americans were slower to get into fully robotic assembly plants, reluctant to spend money for long-term growth because short-term profits lured them on. Etc.
 

takemorepills

Ready to race!
Location
USA
American car makers grew exponentially after WWII in an artificially boosted market. They had the equivalent of a closed marketplace, because until the 1960s and 1970s imports were a mere drop in the bucket of car sales. They had an economy with explosive growth overall, and a population of boomers itching to buy cars. They had an industrial base built up and magnified by WWII and the development of the military industrial complex of the Cold War, and they had, until the mid-1970s, a relatively benign regulatory environment.

Most of all, they had really cheap gas. In short, it would have been nearly impossible for them to lose money no matter how poor their decision making was. And as the legion of books about Detroit that are available can tell you, they did indeed make really poor decisions. Those bad decisions, though, didn't come home to roost until the 1980s or so, and then snowballed until the collapse of the last decade, circa 2007-9.

During the boom times, though, the infrastructure of Detroit was bloated, internally to the companies and externally, with the unions and the dealer networks. So much money was lost to friction, but it didn't matter, because so much more money was rolling in. When the margins shrunk--thanks to OPEC, regulations, changing consumer demands, globalization, etcl.--the friction stayed...the same. Oops. Stuff like high minimum wages, the infamous job bank (where laid-off union workers would be paid to essentially sit around doing nothing until new jobs could be found for them), health care costs for an aging workforce, pensions, massive corporate officer salaries, grossly inefficient physical plants, etc. all started to eat away at the profits. But most importantly, arrogance had made the big three unwilling--or unable--to see the change in consumer demand. They had, for so long, told people what they wanted, that they literally could not process the idea that consumers wanted something entirely different.

tl;dr, today's much more intelligent, much leaner American car makers are still suffering from the legacy of the past half century or more, which will take a long time to get out from under. Companies like Toyota, starting essentially from scratch in a bombed out Japan, were able to build infrastructures that were much, much leaner, and much, much more rational. The Americans were slower to get into fully robotic assembly plants, reluctant to spend money for long-term growth because short-term profits lured them on. Etc.

I believe that German auto manufacturers still suffer many of these problems you mention, their Unions are very strong. On the streetcars we use in our city, all of the control systems are made by Siemens and Hanning & Kahl. Now, I have worked in electronics manufacturing for a long time, and nearly everything is made in China these days. But, when I looked in the control boards of this equipment, almost NOTHING was made in China. Even devices that I have used in my past designs, which were only available through my supply chain as Chinese, were the same P/N but made in Europe. Blew my mind. And I support this wholly. Unions are not always a bad thing.

But, about Ford, I will say they still carry a very real stigma with them.
How many times do we here about a new, better than ever Ford, only to look back on them every 10 years and realize they are the same company, making the same shit?

Merkur XR4Ti (uncle had one new in the day) was a mind blowing revelation back in mid-80's. Turned out a piece of shit

How about Taurus? Super competitive out of the gate, but a total pile of shit as time goes on. Never coveted like an Accord or Camry after time, even though the Taurus seemed great at first.

Contour SVT....pretty much fall apart after 10 years. Whens the last time you see one of these cars? Very appealing car when new.... Maximas held up way better than Contours.


I drive new Fords every day. We have a 2015 diesel F-450 that just puked its guts out onto our parking stall at 9k miles, our repair shop said the cab has to come off, needs to go to the dealer.

In my 2015 EB Transit Connect, I moved the sun visor and the hinge part shattered. Typical of Ford.

Although their new EB vehicles bring power to the table, I still feel like it will be like groundhogs day again with Ford 10 years from now as we look back on 2016 Fords and see how they are just as crappy as 2006 or 1996 or 1986 Fords. Appealing when new.....crap in the long run.
 

TheWombat

Go Kart Champion
Location
Vermont
Oddly, I've found Ford to be my favorite domestic manufacturer. I've owned three, and my wife currently has an Escape, her second Ford. While the company has had its share of issues, it's also the only American manufacturer that gives a damn about hatchbacks at all, and tries to have performance models of most of its vehicles. Design-wise, I appreciate Ford's comparative restraint compared to GM's flirtation with too many creases, folds, and angles.

OTOH, if GM say would make a hot hatch version of the Cruze, or a SS version of the Malibu, I think they could trounce ford in those niches, as the Focus and the Fusion, while fine, aren't IMO quite as refined as the Chevys. Buick's AWD turbo Regal sport thingy might be competitive with the Fusion Sport, except, well, it's a Buick, and no matter how hard they try they can't escape the blue hair factor. I might be biased, though; my only Buick was a 1982 Century with a vinyl roof and bordello velvet seats.

If you want a small, fast, nimble car, especially if you want a hatch, Ford is the only game in town really in terms of Detroit iron. Muscle cars, well, even Dodge can play in that sandbox, but I shifted my interests from those a while ago. I have zero brand loyalty to any car company, but I've owned three VWs (all Rabbit/Golfs) because in this small FWD sport-ish segment they pretty much dominate.
 

takemorepills

Ready to race!
Location
USA
I think Ford uses insane design engineers. The dash in my Transit Connect, I believe, is the same or very similar as the Fiesta or Focus, it looks like the forehead of a Klingon. It is so dramatically styled that the AC vents are at such an angle they only blow upwards. They can't be positioned downwards like every other car on the market. Ridiculous. And the Fiesta and Focus have a fish face on them, that not even the RS can hide.
 

odessa.filez

Autocross Champion
Location
Roswell, GA
Car(s)
2016 GSW 1.8tsi auto
Sounds like a nice car but a whole different kettle of fish to a Golf R. If I seriously considered it, I'd also drive a Charger RT / SRT or Chevy SS and decide which is the best value.

I did drive a Fusion as a 7 day rental and liked it. Nice family sedan.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

TheWombat

Go Kart Champion
Location
Vermont
Sounds like a nice car but a whole different kettle of fish to a Golf R. If I seriously considered it, I'd also drive a Charger RT / SRT or Chevy SS and decide which is the best value.

I did drive a Fusion as a 7 day rental and liked it. Nice family sedan.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

The key difference is the AWD I think. The SS is a great large sedan, really, but only RWD. You can get a Charger in AWD but not with the beefiest engine. The Ford isn't really playing in the muscle arena so much as trying to be an Audi.
 

TheWombat

Go Kart Champion
Location
Vermont
I think Ford uses insane design engineers. The dash in my Transit Connect, I believe, is the same or very similar as the Fiesta or Focus, it looks like the forehead of a Klingon. It is so dramatically styled that the AC vents are at such an angle they only blow upwards. They can't be positioned downwards like every other car on the market. Ridiculous. And the Fiesta and Focus have a fish face on them, that not even the RS can hide.

Yeah, some of the interiors are...whack. But the most awfullest bizzaro center stack I've seen recently is in the Cadillac ATS...oy.
 
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